Bible Talk with Pastor Moss
Transcribed by Willette Junior
Saturday, March 27, 2010
Pastor Moss: Many of you have heard me say that I
do not believe, I do not ascribe to the belief that apostles are for today. By
that I mean that there are no apostles today like Paul, like John, like James,
like Matthew, like any of the New Testament apostles. I just don’t believe it.
Rather than me come from a negative angle and attack it in one way, let’s take
this approach. Let’s ask ourselves the question which nobody ask themselves,
nobody’s looking at this the way they really should. I think we should start by
asking ourselves, what is an apostle and what are the qualifications of an
apostle?
It’s not like the bible is silent about this.
The bible does lay down that there are certain qualifications for a New
Testament apostle. And if a person does not match those qualifications they can
call themselves whatever they want, but you cannot be a New Testament apostle
unless you meet the qualifications of one. So, I’m wondering:
1. Can you name what these
qualifications are?
2. What does it take to be an apostle?
3. What kind of criteria is it?
4. What is it that makes a person an
apostle anyway?
And that’s the whole
challenge for today. It’s not just that you go to school and you come out, hey
I’m an apostle now. I took apostleship 101, that’s not the way it works. The
bible lays down a certain standard. The bible has certain qualifications. What
are those qualifications?
If you get it correct I will even
supply the scripture. Man, and that’s a big step for me. Normally I don’t give
you anything! But, if you can name the qualifications, the biblical and
theological qualifications, then I will help you with the scripture that shows
it, that justifies it, that makes it biblical. You’ve got to start, so if you
know what the qualifications of an apostle are give us a call. If you have read
something, can remember something in the New Testament that lets you know what
those qualifications are, then you need to give me a call. I’ll tell you if
you’re right and go to the word of God to see if we can find something to back
it up.
Caller
responses:
Is
a apostle and a bishop the same thing?
Pastor Moss: No they are not.
Well
there no sense in me going any further. I was going to go to Timothy, I believe
its Timothy about the husband of one wife.
Pastor Moss: You’re right in I timothy 3 and over
in Titus 1.
1 Timothy 3:
1 This is a true saying,
If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. 2 A bishop
then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good
behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
1 Titus 1: 6 If any
be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of
riot or unruly. 7 For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not
selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy
lucre;
And a lot of
times people just put all these terms together. They think an apostle, and a
bishop and evangelist, they’re all the same, but actually they’re not. There’s
a lot of similarity between them, but these are different offices within the
church, and so it’s very important to know that, because people come around
today and they say that they’re this or that, how do you know if you can’t
define the terms. Every discussion starts out with the definition of terms.
I
think the qualifications are in Acts 1:22. You must be a witness of the
resurrection of Christ.
Acts 1: 20 For
it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no
man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take. 21 Wherefore of these
men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and
out among us, 22 Beginning from the
baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be
ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection. 23 And they appointed
two, Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias. 24 And they
prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether
of these two thou hast chosen, 25 That he may take part of this ministry and
apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his
own place.
Pastor Moss: So an eye witness of the resurrection
or of the resurrected Christ?
Of
the resurrected Christ.
Pastor Moss: Right. A lot of folks would think this means the
resurrection. No one or no human being was an eyewitness to the resurrection
itself. But, they did have to be an eyewitness of the resurrected Christ. Are
you saying that that’s across the board, that any apostle had to be an
eyewitness of the resurrected Christ?
Yes,
cause Paul met him and Peter, they spent time with him so you actually had to
have been with the Lord Jesus Christ.
Pastor Moss: That is one of them. In order to be
an apostle you had to be an eyewitness of the resurrected Christ. You had to
see Jesus after he rose from the dead. I Corinthians 9:1 (read passage)
1 Corinthians 9: 1 Am I not an apostle? am I not free? have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord?
are not ye my work in the Lord?
that was a criteria. My problem with folks
today who want to say they’re apostles, they weren’t eyewitnesses actually of
the resurrected Lord. So, that is one of
the qualifications, that’s not the only one, but I would have to admit that is
a key one.
They
had to have seen him taken up into heaven.
Pastor Moss: Is there something that says that they had to
see him taken up into heaven?
Acts chapter 1.
Pastor Moss: ok. Acts1:11,
Acts 1: 11 Which also said, Ye
men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is
taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him
go into heaven.
now here’s
what we know, and you’re right, they did see him go into heaven, but whether or
not they had to, I would say this, that’s not frightfully wrong. Basically
that’s related to the first thing we said, they had to see the resurrected
Christ. That would not be a key qualification, still we’re talking about they
had to see the resurrected Christ. Now this one that we have is a key one but
it is not the only one. There are other criteria of an apostle that let you
know this could not describe a person today.
My biblical
position is that there are things that the apostles did that no one could do
today. If you call yourself an apostle today, you’re calling yourself an
apostle in a different sense than John, James, Paul, & Peter. That’s my
only position and I believe that that can be proven biblically and we’ve started
on that position already.
First
of all to be an apostle they had to be called by God and ordained by Christ.
Pastor Moss: So, in other words you’re saying #2, besides
being an eyewitness they had to be called to the office of an apostle, is that
right?
Acts1: 2 Until the day in which he
was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto
the apostles whom he had chosen:
Exactly.
Pastor Moss: you’re right. They had to be called to the
office. Why is that so? Let me challenge you further. Why is that so that being
an eyewitness wasn’t enough, that they had to be called also? How do we know
that that’s so?
I’m
not quite sure, but when Jesus called them to be his apostles he instructed
them, he taught them, they walked with him and as the first caller said they
were eyewitnesses, they were the first witnesses, and they were told and
instructed by the Lord to go out and preach and teach to all men.
Pastor Moss: Now, you’re exactly right, in fact this was
what they did. They were taught by Jesus, they spent a lot of time with Jesus,
when we look at Luke 6:13 where we see the selection of the apostles and here
Jesus had been praying all night (read beginning at Luke 6:12)
Luke 6: 12 And it came to pass in
those days, that he went out into a mountain to pray, and continued all night
in prayer to God. 13 And when it was day, he called unto him his disciples: and
of them he chose twelve, whom also he
named apostles;
so he called
them, they were with him and the reason why you had to be chosen is because the
fact there’s a lot of people who saw the resurrected Christ who still didn’t
become apostles. He was seen by Mary and others, you didn’t become an apostle
just because you saw him, but one of the qualifications was that you had to see
him, but then you had to be chosen just as it says in Luke 6 and just as it
says over in Acts 9 concerning Paul, but the Lord said go thy way for he is a
chosen vessel. So you are exactly right you take another one off the table.
Acts 9: 15 But the Lord said unto
him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen
vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the
children of Israel: 16 For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for
my name's sake.
And
one other scripture used for that I Corinthians 1:1.
1
Corinthians1: 1 Paul called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of
God, and Sosthenes our brother,
Pastor Moss: Still we got two of the qualifications down
but there are more. Can you find them? Give us a call.
I
have Luke 24:46-49. In 47 it gives Jesus
gave authority for them to take the message of repentance to all nations
beginning in Jerusalem, there’s forgiveness of sin for all who turn to me and
you are witnesses of all these things and verse 49 says and I will send the
Holy Spirit just as my Father promised but stay here in the city until the Holy
Spirit comes and fills you with the power from heaven.
Luke 24: 46 And said unto them, Thus
it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead
the third day: 47 And that repentance
and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations,
beginning at Jerusalem. 48 And ye are
witnesses of these things. 49 And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the
city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power
from on high.
Pastor Moss: you did a very good job. What you said was
this basically, that they were given a
commission to preach the word of God and they spoke an authoritative message.
In other words, they were his key spokespersons for the gospel. Not to say that
others didn’t do it after them, but what you’re saying is that they had a
special commission, is that right?
Yes.
Pastor Moss: In fact it was so special that over in John
17 it say this, this what Jesus said concerning them (verse 20)
John 17: 20 Neither pray I for
these alone, but for them also which
shall believe on me through their word;
Everyone
that believes now, you believe on the
gospel as it was preached and written by the apostles. In fact it goes so
far in Act chapter 2
Acts 2: 42 And they continued
stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread,
and in prayers.
I believe
and you can tell me if I’m wrong, I don’t think so, but wasn’t the gospel
called the apostles doctrine?
Well
I can’t tell you that you’re wrong. (Laughter).
Pastor Moss: Well you can if I am, but especially if I’m
right because that is what it says. It was the apostles’ doctrine. That was
because the commission was so special to them until literally the gospel that
they preached was called the apostles doctrine even though we know it was
actually the doctrine of the Lord. This is in Acts chapter 2 verse 42, we’ll
read verse 41 as well (read passages)
Acts 2: 41 Then they that gladly
received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them
about three thousand souls.42 And they
continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in
breaking of bread, and in prayers.
So you’re
exactly right, they were specially commissioned. That’s what we mean when we
say they had a foundational ministry. That God commissioned them and through
them to preach his word, to preach the gospel. Good job so far we got three of
them out of the way. These are qualifications that the apostles had that nobody
has today.
There are
more.
There
were gifts also.
Pastor Moss: What is it about the apostles and gifts?
In
Ephesians 4 from 7 to 11.
Pastor Moss: Doesn’t that say he gave gifts to men did it
say necessarily that he gave them to the apostles?
Yes.
Pastor Moss: Is there a verse that talks about the
apostles having special signs and gifts? If you can find that you might be in
the ball park. I thought she had it and she’s so, so close. We’ve got to
recognize that there are things that the apostles did that no man or woman can
do today, not like they did.
I think if I’m not mistaken the qualifications were you
had to be a follower of Jesus, you had to witness his crucifixion, his burial
and you had to witness his resurrection and be given the great commission.
Pastor Moss: Some of those seem to fit, how would Paul fit
into all of that?
Because
he witnessed the resurrected Christ when he was on his way to Damascus when he
was knocked off of his horse.
Pastor Moss: The only thing you put in there, you said he
witnessed the crucifixion.
I’m
sorry, I didn’t mean the crucifixion, cause it was a lot of them that didn’t
actually witness the crucifixion. But, they had to know Jesus during his
ministry and they had to have seen him or spoken with him after his
resurrection. They had to know that he was at least crucified.
Pastor Moss: Now here’s what we have already; you had to
be an eyewitness of the resurrected Christ, you had to be called to the office
of an apostle, they spoke an authoritative message. (Luke 10 and John 17) now
other than these what else?
If
I’m not mistaken they had to be filled with the Holy Spirit.
Pastor Moss: Well, we all have to have the Holy Spirit of
God. How is that a special thing that made someone an apostle?
Well
originally the disciples hadn’t been filled with the Holy Spirit yet. So, when
they went to the upper room, that’s when the Holy Spirit came, He was the one
that they originally gave the message to __________ until the Holy Spirit came
and once it came it was here. That may not be a qualification.
Pastor Moss: It wasn’t a specific qualification cause we
have people today who are filled with the Holy Spirit, yet they’re not apostles.
Right.
Cause they were able to do miracles also.
Pastor Moss: Ok. You’re walking on the ball field. You
about to play ball and I’m about to throw a fast ball to you, let me see if you
can hit it? Now, you’re saying that the apostles had to be able to perform
miracles?
Yeah.
Pastor Moss: :
But, didn’t other Christians perform miracles?
Let
me see, they probably did and some of the disciples performed miracles even
before.
Pastor Moss: What
was the difference then between the apostles performing miracles and other
Christians performing them in the New Testament? If you can answer that you got
it. You’re close, you’re up there, you’re out of the dugout.
The
apostles were given the authority directly from Jesus to perform miracles,
directly from him himself.
Pastor Moss: I want to say this to you cause this would be
a good time to say to you, I won’t accept it until you give me the scripture
but, what happens is I said that if your theology was good, I would add the
scripture, if you heard the beginning of the program. Because you said it very
well, your theological pronouncement was very clear and I think what backs you
up 100% here is over in II Corinthians 12:12 (read passage)
2 Corinthians 12: 12 Truly the signs
of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and
wonders, and mighty deeds.
the apostles had special signs and wonders
that they were given. In fact they were called the signs of an apostle in II
Corinthians 12:12. So you’re right, they did have special, miraculous authority
because they were apostles, as a further confirmation of their office. So, I
give it to you buddy.
Well
pastor the whole issue was I was trying to figure out how anybody could call
theyself an apostle.
Pastor Moss: I have a lot of problems with that today. Its
gaining some momentum, it’s called the restoration movement where people are
saying that we have to have apostles just like we had in the new testament, but
we can’t because they had a foundational ministry. No one is repeating what
these guys did. And that becomes a problem today that folks can’t answer that
question because they don’t know what the qualifications of an apostle were.
They
had to have authorship of the new testament. They had to have been a writer.
Pastor Moss: So in other words, the apostles could write
inspired scripture. That’s a good one right? In fact they were inspired by God
directly in this regard. Now, I’m going to ask you, you don’t have to come up
with it, I’ll help you if I have to. I Corinthians 14:37 (read passage)
I
Corinthians 14:37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let
him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of
the Lord.
so he’s
writing the Lord’s commandments. The scripture is authoritative isn’t it? Let
me ask you this question: Does it seem to you, in reading the new testament
that the apostles had authority over all the churches?
Yes it does.
Pastor Moss: You’re exactly right cause that’s the case.
Even Peter said in II Peter 3:1 (read passage)
2 Peter
3:1
This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up
your pure minds by way of remembrance: 2 That ye may be mindful of the words
which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:
First Peter
said be mindful of what the prophet said, then he says and of the commandments
of us the apostles of the Lord and Savior.
So, Peter here is putting him and
the rest of the apostles on the same level as the old testament prophets.
Now, I don’t think that anybody today can do that.
No,
I agree.
Pastor Moss: Now maybe some of you can see why it
is that I don’t believe there are apostles today who are the same or has the
same ministry as the apostles did in the New Testament. The apostle in the
Bible had a foundational ministry which cannot be repeated. You can call
yourself whatever you want, but I would hope you would put to it that I’m an
apostle missionary, something like that. But you’re not like Paul, James, John,
or Peter.
Ephesians
3:5
Ephesians
3:5
Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles
and prophets by the Spirit;
Some of the Key
Qualification of the Apostle office:
1. They were eyewitness of the resurrected Christ
-They saw Him in his gloried body.
2. They were called to the office of
Apostleship. Had to be called by God or
Christ himself.
3. They spoke an authoritative message.
(WE HAVE THEIR MESSAGE IN THE FORM OF THJE New Testament).
4. They had special signs of
apostleship.
5. They wrote an authoritative message.
(WE HAVE THEIR MESSAGE IN THE FORM OF THJE New Testament).
6. They had authority over all the
churches.
a. Peter’s reference to Paul: 2 Peter 3:15-16 And account [that] the longsuffering of our Lord [is] salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all [his] epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as [they do] also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. b. Paul
quotes from Deuteronomy and Luke in 1
Timothy 5:18 For the scripture saith,
Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer
[is] worthy of his reward. This quotation consist of two statements: ·
The first part of the quotation is taken from
Deuteronomy25:4: Thou shalt not muzzle the ox when he treadeth out
[the corn]. · The Second part of the quotation is from Luke 10:7 And in the same house remain, eating and drinking such things as they give: for the labourer is worthy of his hire. Go not from house to house. Paul is calling both scripture. c. Jude quotes Peter in Jude 17,18: These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling [words], having men's persons in admiration because of advantage. But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ; 2 Peter 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
2 Peter 1:16 For we
have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the
power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 2 Peter 3:2 That ye may be mindful of the
words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment
of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:
|
O.T Writings|1400B.C<--------->400B.C.|
Silent Period/Intertestamental|400 years<------>|
N.T./Apostles |45AD<-------->95AD|
General Church Fathers Writings|95-100AD<----->150AD|
More Extensive Church Fathers Writings |150AD<----->200AD|
CRONOLOGY OF SOME CHURCH FATHERS AND
WRITING
95A.D Clements of
145A.D Justin Martyr, Barnabas, Shepherd of Hermas, Teaching of Twelve
Apostles
This covers the literature written to about 145A.D: Epistle of Barnabas,Teaching of the Twelve Apostles (Didaches),
The Shepherd of Hermas, and The
Gospel of Truth. This is about fifty years after the last Apostles Death.
160A.D Epistles of Hermas and the Didache
170A.D.: A work by Irenaeus 250 large pages of English text (He was a pupil of Polycarp who new John).
170A.D. The catalog of N.T. book called the Muratorian Fragments (parts destroyed).
200A.D writings by Tertullian
of North Africa and Clements of
N.T./Apostles |45AD<----->95AD|
Church Fathers |95-100AD<----->200AD|
|200AD<-----------|-------------|-----------|-----------|---------|--->700AD|
Constantine Conversion| 313A.D
Mohammed Born| 570A.D
Koran
written about |632A.D
Roman Catholic
Church birth | 590A.D
SEA SCROLL: BIBILCAL SCROLL DATED
O.T Writings|1400B.C<--------------------------------->400B.C.|
Silent Period/Intertestamental|400 years<----|--------|-------|-------|------------>|
Isaiah
Scroll copy |125B.C
Copy
of Ecclesiastes |1500B.C
Copy of Daniel |200B.C
Fragments of Job,
Jeremiah, Samuel, and Psalm |200B.C
Fragments of Psalm |300B.C (unofficially)
The
The Greek Septuagint,
translated about 200B.C has been preserved in numerous copies made by Christian
scribes and an English translation has been made. Thus, a student who does not know Greek
and Hebrew can now compare the Septuagint with the King James Version.